The AR (assault rifle) thread

[juicedvette381]

just bought an AR-15. pick it up friday! cant wait to go blasting

[DRIVN Ind.]

as soon as I can find someone to mod this to a fully auto or just straight up find one fully auto (illegal or not) im buying this because Ive wanted one since I was like 5



Never been a gun nut, but being italian and a huge gangster movie fan, you cant really fuck with a tommy gun as far as bad ass ness. Unless its a minigun.

[Wreckless]

6Speeder is pretty much on the money in the AR vs AK debate that won't ever die.

The M855/SS109 62grn 5.56 used in military weapons since the 80's has a partial steel core and does NOT come apart upon hitting any target unless you're shooting at something like steel plate or rocks. It punches straight through humans and the majority of soft body armor without SAPI plates.. so long as you're close enough.
M4's with the 14.5in barrel are in the 2700-2800fps range for velocities, only the old 11.5in barreled XM177E2's and M733's had velocities reduced to the ~2600fps range. Still almost meaningless as the 7.62x39 is throwing twice the weight anyway.

As for AK's being in any way ineffective at longer ranges...
I've personally witnessed a moderately good shot with a $300 cheap Romy AK equipped w/a $120 surplus soviet PSO-1 scope consistently hit a torso-sized gong at 750 yards with about 1 of every 3 shots while using careful aimed fire from a sitting position... and I couldn't even get a puff of sand off the bus-sized sand dune behind that gong with my AR or any other 5.56 weapon we had out that day.
Now you might be saying to yourself 1 out 3 shots isn't that accurate. Well, its a damn sight more accurate than I'd be willing to risk, and the AR is absolutely ineffective at that range.
I've also witnessed about half of my entire goddamn BCT company finish our night infiltration course with inoperable M16's because while crawling across that ~200 yards of sand with M240B's firing above our heads, those idiots let their M16's get all packed up with sand. Like the other soldiers that were paying attention, I had the thought to put an empty magazine in the weapon and make sure the dust cover was closed while I was crawling, and I made sure that it never touched the ground.. even though that meant I took longer to finish than some others.

The AR is vulnerable to sandy/dirty environments and going to a gas piston upper ala HK416, POF, Ruger SR556, etc only solves the propellant residue part of the issue - it has very little dimensional tolerance inside the receiver.

The AK, also by design nature is less accurate. It only has two locking lugs on its bolt face, while great for sand/dirt tolerance it isn't as secure or consistent as the 8 lugs the M16/AR15 family of systems has. The AK's barrel trunnion & barrel material are typically really sloppy on tolerances and consistency so even if the 7.62x39 ammo was consistent worth a shit, the gun is still inaccurate. The AK also isn't readily suited to caliber conversions or optics mounting.

They both have their ups and downs.. but if I could have the rifle of my choice in combat it'd be an HK G41 or HK33 if I had to have 5.56.. if I could go up to the 7.62x51 NATO (as fired by the M14, etc) I'd likely roll with a G3 or FN-FAL or maybe an M14 variant.

[+casket+]

never really fired an AR before but i have some nice assualt shot guns

remington swat assualt 12 guage 9 shell 18" barrel.

[6speeder]

Originally Posted by Wreckless

6Speeder is pretty much on the money in the AR vs AK debate that won't ever die.

The M855/SS109 62grn 5.56 used in military weapons since the 80's has a partial steel core and does NOT come apart upon hitting any target unless you're shooting at something like steel plate or rocks. It punches straight through humans and the majority of soft body armor without SAPI plates.. so long as you're close enough.
M4's with the 14.5in barrel are in the 2700-2800fps range for velocities, only the old 11.5in barreled XM177E2's and M733's had velocities reduced to the ~2600fps range. Still almost meaningless as the 7.62x39 is throwing twice the weight anyway.

As for AK's being in any way ineffective at longer ranges...
I've personally witnessed a moderately good shot with a $300 cheap Romy AK equipped w/a $120 surplus soviet PSO-1 scope consistently hit a torso-sized gong at 750 yards with about 1 of every 3 shots while using careful aimed fire from a sitting position... and I couldn't even get a puff of sand off the bus-sized sand dune behind that gong with my AR or any other 5.56 weapon we had out that day.
Now you might be saying to yourself 1 out 3 shots isn't that accurate. Well, its a damn sight more accurate than I'd be willing to risk, and the AR is absolutely ineffective at that range.
I've also witnessed about half of my entire goddamn BCT company finish our night infiltration course with inoperable M16's because while crawling across that ~200 yards of sand with M240B's firing above our heads, those idiots let their M16's get all packed up with sand. Like the other soldiers that were paying attention, I had the thought to put an empty magazine in the weapon and make sure the dust cover was closed while I was crawling, and I made sure that it never touched the ground.. even though that meant I took longer to finish than some others.

The AR is vulnerable to sandy/dirty environments and going to a gas piston upper ala HK416, POF, Ruger SR556, etc only solves the propellant residue part of the issue - it has very little dimensional tolerance inside the receiver.

The AK, also by design nature is less accurate. It only has two locking lugs on its bolt face, while great for sand/dirt tolerance it isn't as secure or consistent as the 8 lugs the M16/AR15 family of systems has. The AK's barrel trunnion & barrel material are typically really sloppy on tolerances and consistency so even if the 7.62x39 ammo was consistent worth a shit, the gun is still inaccurate. The AK also isn't readily suited to caliber conversions or optics mounting.

They both have their ups and downs.. but if I could have the rifle of my choice in combat it'd be an HK G41 or HK33 if I had to have 5.56.. if I could go up to the 7.62x51 NATO (as fired by the M14, etc) I'd likely roll with a G3 or FN-FAL or maybe an M14 variant.

I'm with you on an M14!


Just to stoke that fire a little more while the AK packs more punch, the AR has better wounding capability in close (50 meters):



Of course, while the AK with FMJ ammo just causes a wound channel as is enters and exits, we don't have to use FMJ ammo, and will behave better against soft targets with soft points or JHP ammo.

Notice in the diagram my poor little 5.7 x 28 is pretty effective.

[xlr8dtbss]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboTRex

Just do not drop that AR in the mud, hopefully it is not in a sandy condition to cause the bitch to jam, and you are not in a big hurry because you have to field strip that bitch and clean it while someone is shooting at you. If you are at a target range, the AR is bad ass

apperently you haven't run into the new short stroke gas piston 6.8 spc ar. that thing runs circles around the ak-47. not to mention all major ar manufacturers make at least on model with the short stroke gas piston, leading to less jamming, less cleaning, lower bolt temps, no blow back. the short stroke gas pistion ar's are far superior to the ak-47. not to mention the versatility of the ar in the way of multiple calibers, i mean come on i have the choice of 5.56 nato, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc, 9mm, 50 beowulf, 7.62x39, .22 lr, .308, .458 socom, just to mention a few all based on the same platform and easily interchangeable. can you say that for the ak-47?? i think not

[Wreckless]

Originally Posted by xlr8dtbss

apperently you haven't run into the new short stroke gas piston 6.8 spc ar. that thing runs circles around the ak-47. not to mention all major ar manufacturers make at least on model with the short stroke gas piston, leading to less jamming, less cleaning, lower bolt temps, no blow back. the short stroke gas pistion ar's are far superior to the ak-47. not to mention the versatility of the ar in the way of multiple calibers, i mean come on i have the choice of 5.56 nato, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc, 9mm, 50 beowulf, 7.62x39, .22 lr, .308, .458 socom, just to mention a few all based on the same platform and easily interchangeable. can you say that for the ak-47?? i think not

As I said in my earlier post, the piston-driven gas systems are only a partial fix to the AR15/M16's sensitivity to dirt. The main problem is in the upper receiver's lack of 'slop' space for it to function with dirt/sand etc inside the weapon. While this makes for a precise and easily accurized platform, If you drop an AR on its right side and the dust cover is open, you're tearing down the whole weapon to clean it. Period.